I spent a lot of time today at the Cape, working on research for my paper on Anthony Braxton, one of my favorite saxophonists/composers (and someone I had the pleasure of playing with under bizarre circumstances about twelve years ago). Got my brain working on some poems, lemme tell you…
I’m going to have to post some of what I read regarding cultural biases toward reading music and not reading music, because I think it has some bearing on the poetry page/stage debate.
In a nutshell (and I’ll do a better job with this later) Braxton talks about a prejudice many jazz critics have against African American creative musicians who read music, write music with some degree of attention to European-derived musical theory, and yet maintain the spirit of jazz improv in their work; it’s complicated and I’m not doing it justice, but an example would someone saying that Braxton’s music is “too cerebral to be jazz.” Judging all jazz against a standard of it needing to come from some deep emotional core, spontaneously generated. primitively originated (yeah, that directly stated — there were plenty of examples given).
Interestingly, one of the critics most taken to task is Amiri Baraka, who has attacked Braxton’s music as not being “black enough” because Braxton identifies the composer Webern as an influence and has played with Warne Marsh and Paul Desmond.
Anyway, the poetry angle…
Braxton makes an interesting point about the idea that the score for a piece of music is, in Western tradition, seen as a text to be followed and reproduced; this is what leads people to believe that written music that represents intelligent, pre-planned creation of the work is the antithesis of jazz.
Braxton points out that his view and the view of many other creative musicians is that the notation provides the basic framework, the trellis upon which the music can grow — it offers ideas, suggestions, etc; but that it is written does not extinguish the necessity for spontaneous creation during the performance.
This seems obvious to me — my poem onstage is rarely an exact duplicate of the one on the page, certainly isn’t a duplicate of the last time I performed it. I’m assuming that’s true of others…
I wonder, though, how much of that spontaneous creation sometimes vanishes during the runup to a slam, as poems are honed to milliseconds of perfection?
Not really arguing anything here; just musing on a stimulating essay. Any thoughts?
Dark Matter 
March 28th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Agreed one hundred percent with everything, Stefan.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Agreed one hundred percent with everything, Stefan.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Agreed one hundred percent with everything, Stefan.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Agreed one hundred percent with everything, Stefan.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Agreed one hundred percent with everything, Stefan.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Agreed one hundred percent with everything, Stefan.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Braxton kills me. One of the jazz players I first spent time really digging into, back in the late 70s.
I had the unmitigated pleasure of having him play sax while I read a single poem back in the early 90s. He was upstairs in his studio, which was over the performance space. Started playing behind one poem, played the whole time, clearly in sync with the words, and stopped at the end. Never came down the stairs or acknowledged what was happening; I was told he did this every time there was a reading there.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Braxton kills me. One of the jazz players I first spent time really digging into, back in the late 70s.
I had the unmitigated pleasure of having him play sax while I read a single poem back in the early 90s. He was upstairs in his studio, which was over the performance space. Started playing behind one poem, played the whole time, clearly in sync with the words, and stopped at the end. Never came down the stairs or acknowledged what was happening; I was told he did this every time there was a reading there.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Braxton kills me. One of the jazz players I first spent time really digging into, back in the late 70s.
I had the unmitigated pleasure of having him play sax while I read a single poem back in the early 90s. He was upstairs in his studio, which was over the performance space. Started playing behind one poem, played the whole time, clearly in sync with the words, and stopped at the end. Never came down the stairs or acknowledged what was happening; I was told he did this every time there was a reading there.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Braxton kills me. One of the jazz players I first spent time really digging into, back in the late 70s.
I had the unmitigated pleasure of having him play sax while I read a single poem back in the early 90s. He was upstairs in his studio, which was over the performance space. Started playing behind one poem, played the whole time, clearly in sync with the words, and stopped at the end. Never came down the stairs or acknowledged what was happening; I was told he did this every time there was a reading there.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Braxton kills me. One of the jazz players I first spent time really digging into, back in the late 70s.
I had the unmitigated pleasure of having him play sax while I read a single poem back in the early 90s. He was upstairs in his studio, which was over the performance space. Started playing behind one poem, played the whole time, clearly in sync with the words, and stopped at the end. Never came down the stairs or acknowledged what was happening; I was told he did this every time there was a reading there.
March 28th, 2005 at 3:39 pm
Braxton kills me. One of the jazz players I first spent time really digging into, back in the late 70s.
I had the unmitigated pleasure of having him play sax while I read a single poem back in the early 90s. He was upstairs in his studio, which was over the performance space. Started playing behind one poem, played the whole time, clearly in sync with the words, and stopped at the end. Never came down the stairs or acknowledged what was happening; I was told he did this every time there was a reading there.
March 27th, 2005 at 11:19 pm
“What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz?”
I do not know… Is it possible that someone was pushing “jazz” on you as the best thing since white bread was invented?
March 27th, 2005 at 11:19 pm
“What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz?”
I do not know… Is it possible that someone was pushing “jazz” on you as the best thing since white bread was invented?
March 27th, 2005 at 11:19 pm
“What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz?”
I do not know… Is it possible that someone was pushing “jazz” on you as the best thing since white bread was invented?
March 27th, 2005 at 11:19 pm
“What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz?”
I do not know… Is it possible that someone was pushing “jazz” on you as the best thing since white bread was invented?
March 27th, 2005 at 11:19 pm
“What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz?”
I do not know… Is it possible that someone was pushing “jazz” on you as the best thing since white bread was invented?
March 27th, 2005 at 11:19 pm
“What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz?”
I do not know… Is it possible that someone was pushing “jazz” on you as the best thing since white bread was invented?
March 27th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Paul Desmond rocks. Not only because he composed beautiful stuff but also because he was able to swing hard and to improvise on his (and Mulligan’s and Brubeck’s) ideas.
It seems to me that AB sometimes sacrifices artistic insights for political goals. I think it is unfair to the artists. I wonder how many great artists think of their stuff in terms of black vs. White. Miles played with lots of white musicians — Lee Konitz, Mulligan, Bill Evans. Does it mean his stuff was not jazz, or less jazz than, say, when Wynton Kelly replaced Evans. Does AB pick on Miles, too? Also, is he critical of Duke Ellington because he was using charts and extensive arrangements?
Re improvisation — I think it’s essential for jazz. (So is swing and buncj of other things.) Probably less essential for performance arts in general.
I like to improvise on a stage and I am sorry I do not do it more. In some of my pieces I designated some portions as being subject to improvisation. I try not to make up my mind about how to do it until the very last moment.
Problem with improvisation in slam context is that, it seems to me, slammers tend to lock themselves into few pieces. Once you do those few enough times, chances are spontaneity and improvisation may disappear.
March 27th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Paul Desmond rocks. Not only because he composed beautiful stuff but also because he was able to swing hard and to improvise on his (and Mulligan’s and Brubeck’s) ideas.
It seems to me that AB sometimes sacrifices artistic insights for political goals. I think it is unfair to the artists. I wonder how many great artists think of their stuff in terms of black vs. White. Miles played with lots of white musicians — Lee Konitz, Mulligan, Bill Evans. Does it mean his stuff was not jazz, or less jazz than, say, when Wynton Kelly replaced Evans. Does AB pick on Miles, too? Also, is he critical of Duke Ellington because he was using charts and extensive arrangements?
Re improvisation — I think it’s essential for jazz. (So is swing and buncj of other things.) Probably less essential for performance arts in general.
I like to improvise on a stage and I am sorry I do not do it more. In some of my pieces I designated some portions as being subject to improvisation. I try not to make up my mind about how to do it until the very last moment.
Problem with improvisation in slam context is that, it seems to me, slammers tend to lock themselves into few pieces. Once you do those few enough times, chances are spontaneity and improvisation may disappear.
March 27th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Paul Desmond rocks. Not only because he composed beautiful stuff but also because he was able to swing hard and to improvise on his (and Mulligan’s and Brubeck’s) ideas.
It seems to me that AB sometimes sacrifices artistic insights for political goals. I think it is unfair to the artists. I wonder how many great artists think of their stuff in terms of black vs. White. Miles played with lots of white musicians — Lee Konitz, Mulligan, Bill Evans. Does it mean his stuff was not jazz, or less jazz than, say, when Wynton Kelly replaced Evans. Does AB pick on Miles, too? Also, is he critical of Duke Ellington because he was using charts and extensive arrangements?
Re improvisation — I think it’s essential for jazz. (So is swing and buncj of other things.) Probably less essential for performance arts in general.
I like to improvise on a stage and I am sorry I do not do it more. In some of my pieces I designated some portions as being subject to improvisation. I try not to make up my mind about how to do it until the very last moment.
Problem with improvisation in slam context is that, it seems to me, slammers tend to lock themselves into few pieces. Once you do those few enough times, chances are spontaneity and improvisation may disappear.
March 27th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Paul Desmond rocks. Not only because he composed beautiful stuff but also because he was able to swing hard and to improvise on his (and Mulligan’s and Brubeck’s) ideas.
It seems to me that AB sometimes sacrifices artistic insights for political goals. I think it is unfair to the artists. I wonder how many great artists think of their stuff in terms of black vs. White. Miles played with lots of white musicians — Lee Konitz, Mulligan, Bill Evans. Does it mean his stuff was not jazz, or less jazz than, say, when Wynton Kelly replaced Evans. Does AB pick on Miles, too? Also, is he critical of Duke Ellington because he was using charts and extensive arrangements?
Re improvisation — I think it’s essential for jazz. (So is swing and buncj of other things.) Probably less essential for performance arts in general.
I like to improvise on a stage and I am sorry I do not do it more. In some of my pieces I designated some portions as being subject to improvisation. I try not to make up my mind about how to do it until the very last moment.
Problem with improvisation in slam context is that, it seems to me, slammers tend to lock themselves into few pieces. Once you do those few enough times, chances are spontaneity and improvisation may disappear.
March 27th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Paul Desmond rocks. Not only because he composed beautiful stuff but also because he was able to swing hard and to improvise on his (and Mulligan’s and Brubeck’s) ideas.
It seems to me that AB sometimes sacrifices artistic insights for political goals. I think it is unfair to the artists. I wonder how many great artists think of their stuff in terms of black vs. White. Miles played with lots of white musicians — Lee Konitz, Mulligan, Bill Evans. Does it mean his stuff was not jazz, or less jazz than, say, when Wynton Kelly replaced Evans. Does AB pick on Miles, too? Also, is he critical of Duke Ellington because he was using charts and extensive arrangements?
Re improvisation — I think it’s essential for jazz. (So is swing and buncj of other things.) Probably less essential for performance arts in general.
I like to improvise on a stage and I am sorry I do not do it more. In some of my pieces I designated some portions as being subject to improvisation. I try not to make up my mind about how to do it until the very last moment.
Problem with improvisation in slam context is that, it seems to me, slammers tend to lock themselves into few pieces. Once you do those few enough times, chances are spontaneity and improvisation may disappear.
March 27th, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Paul Desmond rocks. Not only because he composed beautiful stuff but also because he was able to swing hard and to improvise on his (and Mulligan’s and Brubeck’s) ideas.
It seems to me that AB sometimes sacrifices artistic insights for political goals. I think it is unfair to the artists. I wonder how many great artists think of their stuff in terms of black vs. White. Miles played with lots of white musicians — Lee Konitz, Mulligan, Bill Evans. Does it mean his stuff was not jazz, or less jazz than, say, when Wynton Kelly replaced Evans. Does AB pick on Miles, too? Also, is he critical of Duke Ellington because he was using charts and extensive arrangements?
Re improvisation — I think it’s essential for jazz. (So is swing and buncj of other things.) Probably less essential for performance arts in general.
I like to improvise on a stage and I am sorry I do not do it more. In some of my pieces I designated some portions as being subject to improvisation. I try not to make up my mind about how to do it until the very last moment.
Problem with improvisation in slam context is that, it seems to me, slammers tend to lock themselves into few pieces. Once you do those few enough times, chances are spontaneity and improvisation may disappear.
March 27th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
It’s interesting that you bring this up because as a woman who grew up playing music and knowing how to read, transpose, and all that music theory jumbles, i find myself absolutely unable to improv in the least.
not in music, not in poetry. not in anything creative really.
that being said…none of my performances are ever the same twice. i usually go by how i’m feeling them. the same poem that came out angry once might be depressing and sad the next time. I feel like this is one of the reasons I’m much better in a feature environment that I am in an environment where I try to win a slam.
What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz? I tried to like it when i found out that jazz used to essentially be musicians playing together but essentially “competing” against each other. To know avail. Kind of Blue still makes me want to shove hot wax in my ears…although i’m learning to appreciate jazz…ie Glen Gould…
but i’m wondering if this is where it comes from.
sorry. i gots a fever and find myself wandering from topic to topic not sure if i’m making any sense.
March 27th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
It’s interesting that you bring this up because as a woman who grew up playing music and knowing how to read, transpose, and all that music theory jumbles, i find myself absolutely unable to improv in the least.
not in music, not in poetry. not in anything creative really.
that being said…none of my performances are ever the same twice. i usually go by how i’m feeling them. the same poem that came out angry once might be depressing and sad the next time. I feel like this is one of the reasons I’m much better in a feature environment that I am in an environment where I try to win a slam.
What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz? I tried to like it when i found out that jazz used to essentially be musicians playing together but essentially “competing” against each other. To know avail. Kind of Blue still makes me want to shove hot wax in my ears…although i’m learning to appreciate jazz…ie Glen Gould…
but i’m wondering if this is where it comes from.
sorry. i gots a fever and find myself wandering from topic to topic not sure if i’m making any sense.
March 27th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
It’s interesting that you bring this up because as a woman who grew up playing music and knowing how to read, transpose, and all that music theory jumbles, i find myself absolutely unable to improv in the least.
not in music, not in poetry. not in anything creative really.
that being said…none of my performances are ever the same twice. i usually go by how i’m feeling them. the same poem that came out angry once might be depressing and sad the next time. I feel like this is one of the reasons I’m much better in a feature environment that I am in an environment where I try to win a slam.
What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz? I tried to like it when i found out that jazz used to essentially be musicians playing together but essentially “competing” against each other. To know avail. Kind of Blue still makes me want to shove hot wax in my ears…although i’m learning to appreciate jazz…ie Glen Gould…
but i’m wondering if this is where it comes from.
sorry. i gots a fever and find myself wandering from topic to topic not sure if i’m making any sense.
March 27th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
It’s interesting that you bring this up because as a woman who grew up playing music and knowing how to read, transpose, and all that music theory jumbles, i find myself absolutely unable to improv in the least.
not in music, not in poetry. not in anything creative really.
that being said…none of my performances are ever the same twice. i usually go by how i’m feeling them. the same poem that came out angry once might be depressing and sad the next time. I feel like this is one of the reasons I’m much better in a feature environment that I am in an environment where I try to win a slam.
What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz? I tried to like it when i found out that jazz used to essentially be musicians playing together but essentially “competing” against each other. To know avail. Kind of Blue still makes me want to shove hot wax in my ears…although i’m learning to appreciate jazz…ie Glen Gould…
but i’m wondering if this is where it comes from.
sorry. i gots a fever and find myself wandering from topic to topic not sure if i’m making any sense.
March 27th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
It’s interesting that you bring this up because as a woman who grew up playing music and knowing how to read, transpose, and all that music theory jumbles, i find myself absolutely unable to improv in the least.
not in music, not in poetry. not in anything creative really.
that being said…none of my performances are ever the same twice. i usually go by how i’m feeling them. the same poem that came out angry once might be depressing and sad the next time. I feel like this is one of the reasons I’m much better in a feature environment that I am in an environment where I try to win a slam.
What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz? I tried to like it when i found out that jazz used to essentially be musicians playing together but essentially “competing” against each other. To know avail. Kind of Blue still makes me want to shove hot wax in my ears…although i’m learning to appreciate jazz…ie Glen Gould…
but i’m wondering if this is where it comes from.
sorry. i gots a fever and find myself wandering from topic to topic not sure if i’m making any sense.
March 27th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
It’s interesting that you bring this up because as a woman who grew up playing music and knowing how to read, transpose, and all that music theory jumbles, i find myself absolutely unable to improv in the least.
not in music, not in poetry. not in anything creative really.
that being said…none of my performances are ever the same twice. i usually go by how i’m feeling them. the same poem that came out angry once might be depressing and sad the next time. I feel like this is one of the reasons I’m much better in a feature environment that I am in an environment where I try to win a slam.
What I’m wondering now is if this inability to improv is what turns me off about jazz? I tried to like it when i found out that jazz used to essentially be musicians playing together but essentially “competing” against each other. To know avail. Kind of Blue still makes me want to shove hot wax in my ears…although i’m learning to appreciate jazz…ie Glen Gould…
but i’m wondering if this is where it comes from.
sorry. i gots a fever and find myself wandering from topic to topic not sure if i’m making any sense.
March 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
as far as comparing improvisational music to improvisational poetry, i sometimes wonder how much is totally improvised. musicians practice and recall what has been played for years. i’m sure some music never played before happens live, but i believe a lot of it is context with what was played previously. there is an improv poet in phoenix who asks for words and phrases and weaves them into poetry. i’ll give him this, he is fast on his feet but there is no real weight to what he does. i would be more tolerant of a bad note or musical phrase than i would a bad choice of words or a bad idea. but, getting back to braxton…you know that one song he does, you know, the one with triangles and dotted lines and a circle. i saw him at ASU in 1980 in a four row music room. it was the most intense concert i’ve ever scene. himself and leo smith (brass). both brought an absolute arsenal of instruments.
March 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
as far as comparing improvisational music to improvisational poetry, i sometimes wonder how much is totally improvised. musicians practice and recall what has been played for years. i’m sure some music never played before happens live, but i believe a lot of it is context with what was played previously. there is an improv poet in phoenix who asks for words and phrases and weaves them into poetry. i’ll give him this, he is fast on his feet but there is no real weight to what he does. i would be more tolerant of a bad note or musical phrase than i would a bad choice of words or a bad idea. but, getting back to braxton…you know that one song he does, you know, the one with triangles and dotted lines and a circle. i saw him at ASU in 1980 in a four row music room. it was the most intense concert i’ve ever scene. himself and leo smith (brass). both brought an absolute arsenal of instruments.
March 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
as far as comparing improvisational music to improvisational poetry, i sometimes wonder how much is totally improvised. musicians practice and recall what has been played for years. i’m sure some music never played before happens live, but i believe a lot of it is context with what was played previously. there is an improv poet in phoenix who asks for words and phrases and weaves them into poetry. i’ll give him this, he is fast on his feet but there is no real weight to what he does. i would be more tolerant of a bad note or musical phrase than i would a bad choice of words or a bad idea. but, getting back to braxton…you know that one song he does, you know, the one with triangles and dotted lines and a circle. i saw him at ASU in 1980 in a four row music room. it was the most intense concert i’ve ever scene. himself and leo smith (brass). both brought an absolute arsenal of instruments.
March 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
as far as comparing improvisational music to improvisational poetry, i sometimes wonder how much is totally improvised. musicians practice and recall what has been played for years. i’m sure some music never played before happens live, but i believe a lot of it is context with what was played previously. there is an improv poet in phoenix who asks for words and phrases and weaves them into poetry. i’ll give him this, he is fast on his feet but there is no real weight to what he does. i would be more tolerant of a bad note or musical phrase than i would a bad choice of words or a bad idea. but, getting back to braxton…you know that one song he does, you know, the one with triangles and dotted lines and a circle. i saw him at ASU in 1980 in a four row music room. it was the most intense concert i’ve ever scene. himself and leo smith (brass). both brought an absolute arsenal of instruments.
March 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
as far as comparing improvisational music to improvisational poetry, i sometimes wonder how much is totally improvised. musicians practice and recall what has been played for years. i’m sure some music never played before happens live, but i believe a lot of it is context with what was played previously. there is an improv poet in phoenix who asks for words and phrases and weaves them into poetry. i’ll give him this, he is fast on his feet but there is no real weight to what he does. i would be more tolerant of a bad note or musical phrase than i would a bad choice of words or a bad idea. but, getting back to braxton…you know that one song he does, you know, the one with triangles and dotted lines and a circle. i saw him at ASU in 1980 in a four row music room. it was the most intense concert i’ve ever scene. himself and leo smith (brass). both brought an absolute arsenal of instruments.
March 27th, 2005 at 8:05 am
as far as comparing improvisational music to improvisational poetry, i sometimes wonder how much is totally improvised. musicians practice and recall what has been played for years. i’m sure some music never played before happens live, but i believe a lot of it is context with what was played previously. there is an improv poet in phoenix who asks for words and phrases and weaves them into poetry. i’ll give him this, he is fast on his feet but there is no real weight to what he does. i would be more tolerant of a bad note or musical phrase than i would a bad choice of words or a bad idea. but, getting back to braxton…you know that one song he does, you know, the one with triangles and dotted lines and a circle. i saw him at ASU in 1980 in a four row music room. it was the most intense concert i’ve ever scene. himself and leo smith (brass). both brought an absolute arsenal of instruments.